- Zacharyah T Honikman From the time we entered Israel under Yehoshuah until we build the 1st Bet HaMikdash was about 400 years. Egypt slavery was only 210 years and it took that long for us to free our selves from the slave mentality we were in. We have been without our land for 2000 years and everyone expects everything to fixed in one hour minus commercials. It took almost 200 years from the time the Gra, Baal Shem, & Ohr HaChaim started of for the land and send to students to when we proclaimed our State. We did it dunam by dunam, cow by cow. No we are in the mist of liberating the Har, Aliyah by Aliyah , Kali by Kali. We are in the mist of the redemptive process, we didn't get into this mess in a day, a week, a year, or a century. Kacha Kacha HaGeluah slowly but surly WE SHALL BE FREE.
- Ariel Ben Yochanan I wish you were right Zacharyah T Honikman. However, when I open my eyes and stop dreaming I see a ship on the river, moving to the wrong direction. The river is the flow of authority, from up to down, according to Torah: Hashem gives us His Instructions and we say "we will do and we will understand". But are we doing it? Is it constructive to answer Yes, when in fact you know full well that we are not? The ship is the Children of Israel on the Land of Israel, an old steamer, and it's going upstream, against the flow of the water, which is Torah. This is democracy, in as much as demos means people and cratos power. People-power, in Greek: An intrinsically Hellenistic concept. The State of Israel, at least on paper, is democratic, which is exactly the opposite direction respect of Torah. This means the State of Israel is going against Torah. Using the same structure of the term of democracy, we should have Hashemcracy here. Because we are arrogant and moving the wrong direction, I think it is pretentious on your part to declare that the direction we are marching is OK. It is not. I understand that democracy is comfy, that we can do whatever we want, but this is not the divine plan for us. We know that at the end everything will be alright, for His name's sake, that redemption will come in its time, but this does not absolve us from having to "do" the Jews and keep all the relevant mitzvot in the meantime. I put to you that supporting this kofer State, ideologically, by voting for its kneset, etc. is an error, because these are not Torah institutions and because it is this State that is pro-actively stopping us from having a Torah State. To claim that it is part of redemption is the cherry on the deception-cake as it were, nothing more than buying in to the latest silly Kookist messianism, called Zionism.
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